tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post109597753951665077..comments2011-11-03T22:39:17.647-06:00Comments on DagArchive: Preparing a response: LimitsAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04336286974067459325noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096432834495700072004-09-28T22:40:00.000-06:002004-09-28T22:40:00.000-06:00According to the Tractatus, science says what can ...According to the Tractatus, science says what can be said in order to determine its truth, while philosophy, which should also stick to what can be said, is to be somehow otherwise "elucidating". For the rest, we are to remain silent.<br /><br />The question I have been concerned with is, What should poetry do if this is right? Does the Tractatus characterise poetic language? Does it contain aThomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096418049952244752004-09-28T18:34:00.000-06:002004-09-28T18:34:00.000-06:00Haven't had much time to post lately (and don't ha...Haven't had much time to post lately (and don't have much time now) . . . a few brief thoughts:<br /><br />1) I'm following you on the remark vs. proposition argument. It neatly resolves the anxiety that the seeming circularity of the Tractatus' project induces -- and establishes a clearer path of continuity between the early and later Wittgensteins (by showing that even in the Tractatus Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07584826647352155190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096313289471818942004-09-27T13:28:00.000-06:002004-09-27T13:28:00.000-06:00Yes, I am suggesting that a remark, unlike a propo...Yes, I am suggesting that a remark, unlike a proposition, never asserts. The same sentence, however, can be presented (dargestellt) as a remark or as an assertion.<br /><br />The picture is normally presented as a representation "of" something. We make ourselves a picture _of_ the facts.<br /><br />But we can also just present pictures, without reference to the facts they are about or of. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096310664513618362004-09-27T12:44:00.000-06:002004-09-27T12:44:00.000-06:00I'm enjoying this too.
Unfortunately, I've very l...I'm enjoying this too.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I've very little time to post right now but wanted to mention that the German version of 2.22 states:<br /><br /><I>Das Bild stellt dar, was es darstellt, unabhängig von seiner Wahr- oder Falschheit, durch die Form der Abbildung.</I>In English, "The picture represents what it represents, independently of its truth or falsehood, through the form of Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07584826647352155190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096258538105688572004-09-26T22:15:00.000-06:002004-09-26T22:15:00.000-06:00Anytime, Jay.
Keep in mind that Wittgenstein's ow...Anytime, Jay.<br /><br />Keep in mind that Wittgenstein's own utterances are not, finally, propositions, at least not in the sense in which he defines them. In fact, it seems to me that his translators really did him a disservice here by translating "Bemerkungen" as "propositions" instead of "remarks". After all, this obscures an important connection between the Trac. and the Phil. Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096243772549510742004-09-26T18:09:00.000-06:002004-09-26T18:09:00.000-06:00History is everyone that is on my case.
The totali...<I>History is everyone that is on my case.<br />The totality of acts.</I>Beautiful -- thank you for this!<br /><br />I agree that it's suggestive to attempt to derive a poetics from the Tractatus and I believe it's worthwhile to try.<br /><br />But if we're going to make the attempt, then we've got to do <I>something</I> with Wittgenstein's assertion that a "set of names" (what I called a "randomJayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07584826647352155190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096231515548216562004-09-26T14:45:00.000-06:002004-09-26T14:45:00.000-06:00PS. We labour to collect and to arrange.PS. We labour to collect and to arrange.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096230582645894842004-09-26T14:29:00.000-06:002004-09-26T14:29:00.000-06:00Jay,
It may not be possible to outright derive a ...Jay,<br /><br />It may not be possible to outright derive a poetics from Trac., but I do think it is suggestive. One striking thing about Trac. today is that it seems, as Russell notes in his intro to it, to presume that "The essential business of language is to assert and deny facts." That's the scientific bias we're talking about. Well, before we get to poetic language, it is clear that Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096229958550532492004-09-26T14:19:00.000-06:002004-09-26T14:19:00.000-06:00It's always good to see someone taking Wittgenstei...It's always good to see someone taking Wittgenstein's meaning, & not just his image, seriously. It seems to me that it would not be far amiss to describe his trajectory as one from a position in which the traditional philosophical account of language, i.e. by means of definitions in solitary contemplation of one's books & introspective processes, toward a position (never fully or finally michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00975839075714035618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096219109460479002004-09-26T11:18:00.000-06:002004-09-26T11:18:00.000-06:00Thomas,
You're right -- the notion of a "random c...Thomas,<br /><br />You're right -- the notion of a "random collection" is an odd bird. As soon as we consider it a "collection", it has the potential to "speak" to us (with a sense that will vary from context to context -- mood, its place in a certain social context, and so on).<br /><br />But does this mean that the poem's capacity to "speak" (I hesitate to use such a loaded word) boils down toJayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07584826647352155190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096182823875409502004-09-26T01:13:00.000-06:002004-09-26T01:13:00.000-06:00Sorry about the typos. I meant:
"A random collec...Sorry about the typos. I meant:<br /><br />"A random collection of words is a fact."<br /><br />And<br /><br />I would prefer to speak of the presentation or notation of an emotion (we can compare Frege's "conceptual notation" or Begriffsschrift to this "emotional notation" or Ergriffsschrift.)Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096146906561905582004-09-25T15:15:00.000-06:002004-09-25T15:15:00.000-06:00Everything, I think, will depend on sense in which...Everything, I think, will depend on sense in which a poem is a fact, or the thought by which the poem is articulated.<br /><br />"A random collection of a words is a fact."<br /><br />Consider the odd notion of "a random collection". We could talk of THIS random collection of words: I have some liner notes for Bach's Kunst der Fuge lying on my desk. The last words on each page of the English Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858865501469168339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1096080475753935422004-09-24T20:47:00.000-06:002004-09-24T20:47:00.000-06:00First off, thank you again for this great post. I...First off, thank you again for this great post. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading it, thinking it over (and, truthfully, I still have a ways to go). Although I’m raising some exceptions below, it’s in hopes of furthering the dialogue, improving my own understanding, and at least discovering and clarifying where and how we disagree . . .<br /><br />On poems as facts:<br /><br />You state that “a Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07584826647352155190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6407220.post-1095998799306131992004-09-23T22:06:00.000-06:002004-09-23T22:06:00.000-06:00Gary,
This is wonderful. Hate to admit it, but I...Gary,<br /><br />This is wonderful. Hate to admit it, but I'd never really considered asking the questions of what kind of poetics that Tractatus makes possible. I love where you're going with some of this, and can't wait for the subsequent posts. Just for the record, I'm still not convinced about the thought/language thing despite all the apparent evidence to the contrary. But the burden of Jayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07584826647352155190noreply@blogger.com